How to Price Your SaaS Product the Right Way by Steli Efti, CEO

Steli Efti, CEO

Pricing your SaaS product optimally can mean the difference between success and failure for your business. Even a great team that’s building a great product can fail if they get their pricing wrong.

The more you think about pricing, the more confusing it can get. There are so many different roads you could go down, and it seems like there’s a good argument to be made for why you should go down each and every one of them.

What you can expect from this post isn’t the ultimate truth of SaaS pricing – there is no such thing. It’s a simple framework that we’ve successfully used for our own SaaS sales product and have also seen many other early-stage SaaS startups successfully implement.

Value-based pricing vs market-based pricing

“Base your product price on the value that it created for your customers”.

It’s easy to just look at the pricing of competing vendors and match your pricing to theirs.

However, we don’t suggest you do this. Instead, base your product price on the value that it created for your customers.

Read more on charging your users:

Pricing structure

The most common SaaS pricing is based on number of users in a multi-tiered pricing grid. If you do this, how do you decide which features to include in which pricing tier? What’s the right price point for each tier?

And then there are plenty of other options. Should you charge based on usage? Should you offer freemium? (Listen to my freemium discussion with Hiten Shah from KISSmetrics).

Get out of the building

One of the great advantages you have when you’re starting out is that you can aggressively test different pricing strategies. Your prospective customers are the only people who can truly give you insights into how much you should charge. Offer them your product with different price points and keep track of their responses.

Don’t be cheap

Product-focused founders often underprice their products. As a SaaS startup, you want to be slightly tilted towards premium pricing Read more on charging your users:

Responding to price pressure

What do you do if a competitor drops their prices, or a new low-priced alternative takes away market share from you?

The best way to win a price war is to not get into a price war. Think how you can differentiate yourself and provide more value than your lower priced competitors.

Premium pricing doesn’t ‘feel right’

“Charging high prices for your own product forces many founders out of their comfort zone”.

Do you know which person will complain the most about pricing if you position your product in a premium segment? It’s you! Charging high prices for your own product forces many founders out of their comfort zone – which is exactly the place where most growth occurs.

Remember that it’s about creating the most value in the long run – and ramen profitability isn’t the best foundation for creating more and more value for an ever increasing customer base.

Read more on premium pricing:

How to raise prices without alienating customers

If you’ve already have an existing customer base and want to raise prices, it’s important not to hit them over the head with a price hike (the 2011 Netflix price increase disaster is a lesson we should all heed). Instead, turn your price increase announcement into a sales opportunity by offering to grandfather their new seats for a limited time.

Read more on raising your prices:

How to deal with pricing objections

Prospects will always try to push back about pricing. It’s important that you differentiate when pricing is the real issue and when not. Read more on pricing objections:

There’s no definite truth in SaaS pricing

It’s complex. That’s one of the reasons why building successful startups is hard – because you’re dealing with complexities on all levels. It’s key to simplify it as much as possible, move fast and learn a lot. Use the guidelines laid out in this post to get closer to your optimal price point in minimum time.

Don’t allow anxiety or perfectionism to slow you down – instead, proactively seek out customer feedback by listening to what they say, but also by observing their behavior and how it affects your bottom line.

The Essential SaaS Metrics Guide

We are proud to announce that we have just published our latest book, The essential SaaS metrics guide. The book is a compilation of what we’ve learned about managing SaaS companies – particularly about how dealing with subscription metrics can mean the difference between the success and failure for your business.

In the book you’ll find thoughts on the subscription economy, the differences between managing a traditional versus a subscription business, what are the right metrics for each stage of your company, and six different key Saas metrics explained in details.

The essential SaaS metrics guide

Download your free copy

We hope you like it. Don’t forget to share it with your friends and give us your feedback, we’ll be glad to hear your thoughts. You can reach us any time at or on twitter @saasmetricsco.

Notes from SaaStr 16’ — Day 1 Summary

SaaStr Annual 2016

Amazing event, took a lot of notes. If I forgot something, made a mistake or you have additional stuff for me to add here, feel free to tweet at me or leave a comment.

Atlassian — Inside Story Behind a $5B IPO
Jay Simons

Key insight: Think about “Product Expansion paths”

  • Create a natural network effect built into our products. Think about organic expansion inside the organization
  • Product strategy is important. Atlasssian thinks about the team collaboration.
  • Profile the end users — Make them happy.
  • Be an advocate for your customer and they will be an advocate for you.
  • It was a right decision to divert energy and build a second product.

New Relic: Scaling Even Faster the Second Time
Lew Cirne

Key insight: You’ve got 180 seconds to impress the user


  • I had knowledge of the problem, the customer;
  • Focus on the first minute of experience. It is the most important minute, and that was missing in enterprise software.
  • Make the customer love your product from day 1;
  • Multiple SKUs are distracting. We’d all love to be able to focus on just 1, service the same customer on doing product lines.


  • Get distribution partners. Relic got 400 customers on day 1;
  • Got by the end of 2008 without salespeople;
  • Started adding salespeople in 2009, calling customers, trials.
  • Focus of salespeople — Prioritize the decision NOW. People don’t have time and they can always wait for another week;
  • Sales team was about getting people who already liked our product to become customers.


  • Affordable for SMB, but scalable for enterprise customers


  • As we grow, a lot of competition appears in the SMB space;
  • Learn to be less canadian, defend yourself and punch back;

Hiring your first VP Sales
Brendon CassidySam BlondEmmanuelle Skala

Key insight: The first VP Sales has to be you. Get 2 reps up and running and go for the VP hunt.

  • Perfect timing: You already have 2 reps performing. You have the leads. It is not a true VP of Sales if you only have 1 rep;
  • Have different styles, different profiles for your first reps;
  • The wrong VP of Sales will delay your startup for 1 year.
  • #1 job of the VP Sales is recruiting;
  • Hire ASAP once you have a repeatable process;
  • Your VP Sales must know/have 3–5 sales reps to bring in with him. If not, red flag;
  • VP Sales must take action fast. Assess the team, hire and fire fast;
  • VP of Sales should not carry an individual contributor quota. They exist to teach reps how to do it.
  • You must see results in one sales cycle. More revenue per rep, shorter cycle, 5-10% growth, etc.

More on the subject: This video completely blown my brain in 14′ and inspired us a lot at Rock Content. #thxlemkin, thx Matt Doyon:

CXO Talk Live
Michael KrigsmanZach Nelson

Key insight: Never turn an enterprise deal into a mid market deal 😉

On Netsuite

  • NetSuite was started in 98, went public in 07. Zach came from McAfee, where he was helping the company with internet sales;
  • Initial metrics where deal size and # of deals per rep/month (1 at the time). Never loose historical data, that’ll help find the next growth engines.;
  • Distributed team very early;
  • Priorities: #1 Company vision, #2 Financial management, #3 People

People Retention

  • Track employee vesting schedules. Once they are fully vested, they’ll starting looking for new jobs. Retain these people;

Sales & Market Segmentation

  • Netsuite was selling to SMB’s in the early days, but they were mission critical applications;
  • Cracking the way on how to sell complex applications throught the internet was critical. It allowed Netsuite to sell to midsize business and later (harder) to do enterprise;
  • It’s harder to work for a mid-size business than for enterprise. A U$ 10k mistake is way more dangerous in mid market than on the enterprise;
  • NetSuite once competed with SAP on a 8 million dollar deal. The rep closed a 400k deal. That’s when we learned that the mid market rep would turn enterprise deals into mid market deals. To go enterprise we had to “sorta” create a new organization.
  • When you go public, you have to have a clear answer to “what are your next growth engines? “.


  • Really ugly software, right? None of it works. SAP did a massive 3 billion dollar failure. They should have copied NetSuite.
  • They have not built a single product. They just buy a couple companies and sell it as X on the web.

Building a World-Class Sales Organization
Dave BernanBill BinchJason GreenErica Ruliffson-Schultz

Key insight: The 3 key sales motivators – Personal growth, recognition, compensation.

The VP Sales role

  • VP Sales with little experience that are Alpha Reps are ok in the early stage;
  • At about 10 reps, you need an A+ VP Sales who can train, onboard, and recruit. Someone to build systems;
  • Customer network is also important, specially in enterprise;
  • Your sales leader must be able to tune strategy to segment the team (SMB, enterprise, industry specific, etc.);
  • When scaling, you need a VP Sales who gets his hands dirty;

Early days strategies

  • Marketing on the early days, set quota based on number of deals. Pipeline can be faked;
  • Marketo started with zero discount policy, defined it once the patterns were there;
  • Build a cadence for sales, a motivation machine. Create a spirit of winning;


  • Salespeople are competitive;
  • Motivation factors: #1 growth, #2 recognition, #3 compensation
  • For growth: Encourage 6 months promotions,
  • For Recognition: The leadership must recognize the champs. “Hey, i Saw that deal. Super important for the company”. Have a president’s club. Target for 20% of people. Make sure people get as much fun as they can’t miss it next year
  • For compensation: If you are great on #1 & #2, you can be ok at #3;

Sales Training and Operations

  • If you have 8–10 sales reps and are adding 1 a month, you MUST have training and enablement. It’ll payback faster than you imagine;
  • Sales Ramp up benchmarks: SMB 60–90 days, Mid Market 6 months, Enterprise 9 months;
  • Measure activities. If a rep is trainable and putting in the effort, give them an extra quarter;

Most interesting moment on the talk

Big Binch believes in specialization: “Hunting and customer care are two separate animals. I don’t lump churn and sales together.”

Erica notes that in a product with “high adoption” it is great to have the AE involved in the expansion.

Customer Success: Upsells, Cross-sells and Expansion
April OmanDabid ObrandSanti SubotovskySarah Kokin

Key insight: They only people happy when the customer closes the deal is the salesperson. Finance gets happy when money is in the bank. Engineers are happy when customers actually use the product. CS is happy when customer is successful. Happiness == adoption. Move a significant part of sales compensation towards adoption.

Right time to invest

  • Sometimes, prior to sales. Early goal = Solicit feedback;
  • As fast as possible;
  • For finding your first CSM: Look for consultative people, ability to learn from the customer;

CS metrics

  • Retention is the most important, and first priority;
  • Focus on user engagement, if you have it, you have retention;
  • Customers that want to be a reference. Create passion;

Other notes, ideas

  • Have a clear customer profile. Communicate it to the team;
  • Have a clear alignment across your organization. Make everyone on the organization become passionate about CS;
  • Don’t sell to the wrong customer;
  • Tie part of sales reps comission to retention/adoption;
  • Have a consultative conversation with customers about their one-off requests;
  • Support == cost, Customer Success == Investment;

SaaStr Annual 2016

From Day 0 to IPO: What Went to Plan, What Most Certainly Didn’t
Dharmesh Shah

Key insight: It takes more than technology to build something big.

Wrong assumptions (questioned):

  • Having MBA’s on team is bad. Hubspot has 6 in Management positions;
  • Nobody succeeds selling to small and medium businesses. Hubspot is a billion dollar company selling to these customers;
  • Focus on only 1 thing. Hubspot builds everything a marketer needs (landing pages, seo, smm, email, reporting);

Lessons learned:

  • Charge early, charge often. Your product sucks, that’s ok;
  • Come up with a pricing fast. Do not rocket science it, make it simple. Hubspot had one pricing, one plan, for years;
  • Label your industry. You sell transformation. Hubspot invented “Inbound Marketing”;
  • Don’t be just a brand, be a movement. If you want to create a category, make people be part of it;
  • Freemium hack: Instead of giving people a solution, give them a problem. A Diagnostic tool is a great freemium version, without freemiuns hassles. More on the topic here: ;
  • Absence of cancellation is not proof of presence or delight. Hubspot created the customer happiness index;
  • Lemkin notes: There are some customers that seem active, they seem to be using your product but they’re actually prisoners, waiting to migrate from your product. It’s tricky to find them;
  • Q: How do you resist going enterprise? A: It is easier going upmarket, it is great. The downside is that it is very competitive. The SMB & mid market are infinite.

The Journey to a Unicorn — And How We’re Doing It Even Better This Time
Scott DorseyGordon Ritter

Key insight: Make sure you become a must have, not a nice to have. Become mission critical. Talk to customers everyday.

  • Your product needs to be acessible. Exact Target was laser focused on ease of use. Helping the non-technical marketer be able to do email marketing;
  • Once a small company called Groupon signed via inside sales. A couple months later, they said. We’re gonna be your biggest customer. The ability to serve small and huge companies is critical. SMB helps with virality. Some of those companies will grow fast;
  • Have feature flags: Ability to turn features on and off is critical;
  • Filled to go public in late 07′. A difficult moment, just like right now;
  • Felt the need for a culture framework at 1500 employees. Omniture color was green, Salesforce was red, we wanted a part of it. Being orange was an advantage;
  • 6 acquisitions, all worked incredibly well: 3 international, 3 product expansions;
  • The reseller network was critical for international.;
  • Selling to Salesforce was great, we were SF customers and had a great partnership. They were moving in the marketing cloud direction and it made sense. Salesforce is a PHD in SaaS (stayed for 1 year only);
  • Great moment in Salesforce: Rehearsing Dreamforce keynotes online to all Salesforce employees. Every single employee could rate and comment.;
  • Salesforce is incredibly fast;
  • Integration is critical for success. Exact Target, Buddy Media, Radian 6, lots of companies working in sync.

SaaStr Annual 2016

That’s it for day 1! Feel free to comment, suggest improvements and if you like it, please share it on social networks and send it to your friends that couldn’t make to SaaStr 16′! Stay tuned for tomorrow.

Notes from SaaStr 16’ — Day 2 Summary

SaaStr Annual 2016

Had a lot of fun yesterday, if you want to check day 1 summary, click here. Here’s my notes for Day 2.

Bubble? What Bubble? How It’s Different This Time. And How It Most Certainly Isn’t
Jason LemkinMark Suster

Key insight: In SaaS? It’s time to cut costs, and focus on responsible growth. Not a good time to grow at all costs.

  • There’s a lot of VC money out there and the majority of the money in VC is going to late stage;
  • 55% of money in the system does not come from VC;
  • VC’s are accumulating investments, but not having returns. M&A activity is not up. This is the first january in a decado with zero IPO’s;
  • Median valuation went up 3X in 2 years, but seems to be corrected in Q4 (trend ??);
  • 61% of VCs believe valuations are going down in 16′;
  • Companies are moving towards cost cutting, burn rate reduction and profitability;
  • Not a lot of “FOMO” (fear of missing out) in Silicon Valley anymore. VC’s do not feel the rush to close, and the pace is slowing down. 70% of investors surveyed said their investments have slowed down. They’ll still invest… but not as quickly.
  • Companies aren’t talking about it, but they’re cutting costs.
  • ABR. Always. Be. Raising.

What’s Happening in the Markets: The Real Data
Danielle Morril

Key insights: Raise now OR cut burn and get profitable.

  • In 10 years: 3x more startups getting funded, 6x more capital deployed;
  • We started 15′ at fastest pace of VC deployment in the last 10 years, in 16’things slowed down to 14′ levels (23%);
  • Private funding levels reacted strongly to public markets. Funding announcements lag 1–3 months. Raise now!
  • Seed Stage companies: Medium deal is at U$1.8M now;
  • Series A companies: Going up, right now around U$9.8M;
  • Series A deals are getting done at decent prices, but there’s more competition than before;
  • Series B rounds: Going up, right now at U$24m. Also getting more competitive;
  • Early stage investors are doing inside rounds in their hottest companies.
  • Cutting costs is a great Plan B right now;
  • Keep calm, read Saastr, raise now!

The Insider’s Guide to Becoming a Pre-nicorn
Ben UretskyEogahn McCabeTiago Paiva

Digital Ocean: Developer focused, easy to use cloud services

Key insight: Get organic penetration in the enterprise. CTO is not in charge anymore, developers are.

  • Second company, got first one to U$6m arr, 20 employees;
  • Started with the problem: How do you position, and differentiate a business;
  • Focus on developers: The smaller the market segment that you attack, the greater your likelihood of success;
  • Rackspace owned the “great support” message;
  • At Digital Ocean, we focus on the developer and the best user experience;
  • Digital Ocean is the simplest way to run your cloud. It lets you get your app running fast;
  • It’s like stripe for cloud services, it’s just beautiful;
  • Site is great, product is great, people just love it. Quoting Simon Sinek Start with a why;
  • Getting to 9 digits revenues;
  • 3 VC rounds ( 1st round U$3m from IA Ventures, 2nd round U$37m from AH, 3rd 83M from Access Industries);
  • The VC’s that believe the vision and experience are the ones that invested;
  • Started with a product that sold itself, always focusing in self service. It was getting on average 1000 new customers a day. Right now they are building the first sales team;
  • Biggest challenge was evolving as a leader. Getting to 200 employees company;

Intercom: A360 view of the customer, marketing, support, crm solution.

Key insight: Product first companies are a new trend. Product is great. Leads are almost free;

  • U$66M raised;
  • 50% of customers are abroad;
  • 30 days sales cycle;
  • >50% of customers are touchless;
  • Bringing 10’s of millions in ARR;
  • 3k ACV;
  • Super high volume, reps brings more than 15 deals per month. High activity;
  • Timing: Zendesk and Marketo laid the path for companies like Intercom;
  • Intercom was a better solution for real problems. The product itself was contrastant with the market solutions;
  • Selling to developers and product people;
  • In the new world, our customer approach sales people and says “I wanna buy”;

Talkdesk: Easy to use Call center technology

Key insight: Keep going upmarket, step by step. Lead SMB, go to Mid, lead Mid, go Enterprise.

  • Growing 20% MoM;
  • Bringing 10’s of millions in ARR;
  • From 15 to 200 employees in 1 year;
  • Last year was at U$4m arr;
  • 1y paid upfront brings cash advantages and small dilutions;
  • Got to U$1m arr on a U$500k investment;
  • Biggest change in last 18 months: Transitioning from SMB to mid market & enterprise;
  • Sales now at 45 headcount;
  • Expecting 125 in 12 months;
  • Our SMB customers took us upmarket. They grow and keep adding people. We have to adapt to serve them;
  • Great integrations and ease of use were the differentials to win modern buyers;
  • Drove price point up, 4–5X in 2 years, by adding more functionality. Competitors were complex and expensive, as they closed their feature gaps, they could leverage “new features” to upsell and go upmarket;

The Real Story Behind Mergers, Acquisitions & Corporate VC
John Somorjai

Key insight: Salesforce is both #1 VC and acquirer in SaaS.

Saleforce VC

  • SF started investing strategically in partners in the SF app ecosystem in 2009;
  • 6 people team;
  • Sample great investments: Docusign, Hubspot;
  • Every investment requires a executive sponsor from a business unit.Make financial sense;
  • 3 people in investment comitee. We’re fast;
  • 50% investment pipeline split between ventures team / business unit sponsor;
  • Lots of intros from VC community;
  • Doing 10–15 investments per quarter (new investments & follow ons combined);
  • 150 active companies in portfolio. 50% are A rounds, 30% are B rounds;
  • SF does not take board seats;
  • SF Ventures is a good fit is SF brand and customer base are potential assets for you. Ventures goal is to help companies navigate SF ecosystem;
  • Invests of the balance sheet, so everything is disclosed;
  • Ask for notification rights. You have to disclose to SF before selling;
  • Encouraging companies to get burn rates down and get on the path to profitability;
  • But if you have low churn, there is no reason not to invest in sales growth;
  • Does not invest before U$3M in ARR. If you just got into the app store, it’s too early.

M&A at Salesforce

  • 8 people team;
  • You have to date before getting married;
  • You have to have an exit strategy. Most good companies will end in M&A.
  • Executive relations are crucial for getting shot at being acquired;
  • There are 1000 cool companies @SalesForce could buy for every 1 that it does.

Big Arse Companies: Why They Buy from Startups — The Real Stories
Jonathan LehrTom CarrollJoyce ShenScarlett Sieber

Key insight: Yes, big cos buy from startups. Be pragmatic, understand their priorities, and go straight to the point.

  • Startups are more nimble and give big cos an opportunity to be at cutting edge in tech;
  • Corporate buy from startups by getting close to accelerators, meet ups, being part of ecosystem;
  • As as startup sales rep, keep it to the point, give context, make a relevant approach and understand the industry;
  • Be specific. State how you can help, how you differentiate. Figure out early who should you talk to and tailor your message. 3 sentences email. Don’t start with with a 6 paragraph email. Do not send a template email;
  • Do not assume early that they will be a distribution center before helping them. Do your homework before showing up, do not show up like an idiot.
  • Connect on Linkedin & Twitter. Social works on the enterprise too;
  • We’re not interested in knowing what big data is. Show me the value chain!
  • Have an evangelist. Ask what’s going on. Understand the decision chain. Ask for help;
  • They look for product, customer proofs/testimonials.

Benchmarking Your Startup
Tomasz TunguzConnie Loizos

Key insight: Only 2% of software is in the cloud. We’re still in the SaaS early days. But just being SaaS, staying in the cloud is not enough anymore;

  • Redpoint focuses on A rounds;
  • 3.8B managed, 400+ active investments;
  • Successes include: Stripe, Zendesk, Expensify, Twilio, Heroku;
  • Tom analyzed 60 SaaS companies and brought some benchmarks for SaaS startups for their A rounds;
  • Average A size round: U$9.3M in 15′, growing from U$8.5M in 14′ ;
  • Average A round MRR: U$163K, but 27% of Series As Generate $0MRR;
  • 16′ is a year of change. Markets have changed.
  • Seed investors have grown 5X in 5 years;
  • Public investors value SaaS in revenue multiples. Right now the average is 3.3X revenues;

  • Content marketing and email retargeting keep growing fast and proving themselves as cost effective acquisition strategies;
  • Channel partnerships are becoming an effective SaaS distribution strategy;
  • 2 Big forces in SaaS will bring a new SaaS wave: Machine learning, conversational, chat interfaces;
  • Mobile brings a new distribution paradigm. Expensify cracked mobile distribution, people download the app and get their financial team to switch platforms. This has being a really powerful tool for growth. You get social proof in the organization. Unlike SEO, expensive and competitive, you can still get app installs for cheap;

Driving SaaS Success Using Key Metrics
David SkokAlex Konrad

Key insightThe thing that surprises many investors and boards of directors about the SaaS model is that, even with perfect execution, an acceleration of growth will often be accompanied by a squeeze on profitability and cash flow. — Ron Gill, Netsuite CFO

  • SaaS is a machine. Several levers, metrics that you should care and want to optimize.
  • What we care about the most? 3 fundamentals are: 1) Growth, 2) Profitability, 3) Cash;
  • First, make sure we understand the SaaS cash flow. (more here: );
  • Then understand unit economics (see previous article);
  • The golden LTV > 3xCAC formula is alive and still applies 7 years later;
  • Use variable, multi axis pricing. Axis 1: Product tiers (basic, pro, enterprise). Axis 2: Users (per seat, per storage, per leads, etc…). Don’’ panic about it too early.
  • For cash, always think about “months to recover CAC”. Drive this number down to build a great SaaS business. Months to recover CAC must be less than 12 months;
  • More on CAC: Understand Sales Complexity, and model acordingly. CAC growth by model is not linear, it’s logaritmic. Remove complexity. Adding humans is umbelievably expensive.
  • Primary unit of growth is adding salespeople. Understand a “salesperson” cash flow and its unit economics. The average salesperson takes 23 months in ramping and costs up to U$110k to become profitable.
  • Interesting benchmark: According to Skok OTE (on target earnings) should be around 5X quota (I don’t see this close to being a reallity in brazil);

PS: If you’’e from Brazil (just like me), some time ago I translated SaaS Metrics 2.0 to portuguese =>

10 Laws of Building a Unicorn
Byron DeeterAlex Konrad

Key insight: Follow the 1–1–1 rule. Less than 1X new ARR in burn, Less than 1% churn, Less than a year to recover CAC;

  • Law #10: Be on Demand. Everything is on Demand these days. People expect on demand;
  • Law #9: Grow or Die. Every 10% more in growth, 1x more in multiple;
  • Law #8: Sales efficiency is oxygen. You can live some days without water or food. Oxygen, 8 minutes means you’re braind dead. Sales efficiency reduces dilution;
  • Law #7: Customer Success is key. 1% improvement in churn means way better revenues and valuations;
  • Law $6: Control your destiny. Cash is King. Cost of capital is rising right now;
  • Law #5: know the 5c’s of cloud. CARR, CAC PAYBACK, CHURN, CLTV, lost the last 1 (am i doomed?).
  • Law #4: The best product is starting to win;
  • Law #3: Developers are becoming the customer and decision maker. There are 20M developers in the world. Use API’s to accelerate the business;
  • Law #2: Inspire. Have a vision. Hire great people, that believe in a true north;
  • Law #1: Mobile is eating the world (wide web). 85% of your customers are on a smarthone. More than 50% of web usage is mobile;

Presentation can be downloaded here.

Building a Killer Company in a Nonobvious Market
Andy WilsonScot ChisholmDaniel ChaitAileen Lee

Key insight: You don’t need to be super sexy. You need to match a real demand and you’re gonna get great growth, even if it’s a nonobvious market.

  • If you’re niche, it’s not easy to raise money early. The first dollar raised is the hardest.
  • HR is somewhat easier. A lot of people think what we’re doing is meaningful and they actually care. You have several ways to differentiate;
  • Traction is your best friend if you’re raising;
  • Thought leadership is a key to succeed if you’re not mainstream. Come with a complete new concept and tell people;

Building — And Monetizing — A Partner Ecosystem
Neeracha TaychakhoonavudhNarinder SinghApril UnderwoodIlya Fushman

Key insight: Be big enough. People will come to you.

  • 20% of slack’s team works in platform;
  • Platform is not to everyone;
  • You need either data, or API’s to make developer’s life easy;
  • Sometimes you need a service, not a platform. You can provide it as an API, and maybe not a platform;
  • A platform is a huge commitment;
  • You’re distribution, but they increase your adoption;
  • Aim to solve a big problem. That’s the foundation;
  • Bringing big partners early accelerates everything;
  • Keep the partner bar high. People trust and will ask the platform;
  • If the end goal of what you’re working on is just to make a specific platform better, think broader.

That’s it for today guys, see ya tomorrow for day 3. Also, if you have any idea on how to make this better, feel free to tweet at me at @dttg.

Notes from SaaStr 16’ — Day 3 Summary

SaaStr Annual 2016

Final day at #SaaStrAnnual 16′. This was the best event that i attended as a SaaS founder. If you want to review the previous days, here’s my notes:

What Makes a Great SaaS CEO
Josh SteinJason Lemkin

Key insight: If you can get to U$1m in ARR you are smart enought to do it. The question is: Do you want a put the effort it?

  • It is crucial to set a great vision;
  • Met Aaron Levie 2y before the investment;
  • He burned the boat early to leave B2C and focus on enterprise. He had to “rebuild himself” to become an enterprise leader. All with discipline and hard work;
  • He became the go to guy for thought leadership in the industry;
  • Don’t say “I’m not a good public speaker. I’m not an enterprise guy.” You have to practice. You have to embrace the change.
  • Set values and principles, that’ll make things easier;
  • As you grow, be less exposed to day to day ops. Assemble a great team;
  • 3 stages that require great changes: Up to 50 people, 200 people, 1000 people. You have to emerge as a figure, scale yourself;
  • Set clear responsibilities for CEO, COO, CRO, etc;
  • Empower people to make decisions and not bottleneck;
  • Do not ask yourself if you are capable to become a CEO. Just take the commitment. It takes a lot of effort on the side. It takes reading every single business book. The key question is: Do you want to do it?
  • You always have to be thinking 6–12 months in advance. Get advice. Bring external feedback;

Marketo: Winning, IPO’ing, and Going Upmarket
Phil Fernandez

Key insight: Ignore the competition. Let them chase you, do your own thing.

  • Fun fact: Lemkin was one of the first 10–15 Marketo customers;
  • Marketo started focused on mid market. Huge race to the bottom, with 6–7 competitors;
  • Before marketing automation, they started as a SEO product. Pivoted after A round;
  • In the enterprise there was need for innovation, budget and less competition;
  • Average deal size is U$50k;
  • We saw Eloqua as a interesting company between Siebel and Benioff. But on the same budget;
  • We highjacked their brains by not engaging in their game. We didn’t respond, they start following. You don’t wanna be responding to the competition;
  • Should we worry about relative velocity? Should you care if your competitors are growing faster? Have a real strategy on what you’re doing. Ultimately, first mover takes the largest share, as SaaS compounds, but segmentation is crucial. Focus on finding out what’s the next play to scale the business;
  • Success doesn’t have to mean taking the market… it means we’re growing & scaling within a huge category.
  • The degree of change from $1m to $10m is incredible. You need continuous learners to keep a evolving team;
  • We weren’t great at strategic planning at U$30m, so we hired for that. U$30m was too early for us to hire a “big company” executive. The organization had a hard time with it. The seduction of the big SAP-type exec is powerful. Be careful if it’s too early;
  • Spend about 30% of your time with customers. The cocaine of user acquisition can be very dangerous;

Scaling from 30–1,500 in SaaS: Lessons From the Frontlines
Kirsten Helvey

Key insight: Be transparent, polite, work hard to help everybody to develop their self awareness sense.

  • Joined as an account manager, at 30 people. Primary job was dealing with enterprise customers. At that time, we spent time explaining what cloud computing is, and the advantages of the cloud;
  • All i wanted was a job close to home. I had consulting background. So i had to align business proccess internally and with our customers. I made a lot of mistakes. I moved away from those fast, and that’s key. Be agile. I like building and changing. Don’t stop building and changing;
  • I fundamentaly believe that if I don’t learn something new everyday, I’m failing;
  • You need to have culture. It’s not about ping pong tables, candy walls. You need to trust each other. It’s about relationships. The employees are the culture;
  • To create a great culture, acknowledge, and mantain it. You have to care about what you’re doing. You gotta have a mission and stay true to that;
  • People who are not great fit for the next stage: Offer paths and mobility. Give special attention for folks that did an awesome job. Let them know what they’re not good at. Help them develop their self awareness. Help hem create their own plans;
  • When you create a clear, measurable plan, it is easier to coach people. People will tell you if you’re being successful or failing if you ask. You have to be clear with feedback. Straight to the point;
  • The I’s don’t scale. The We’s do!
  • Forget the MBA, get a psychology degree. It’s all about communication and motivation;
  • How to deal with great talent decided to become a “manager”? Tell them you’re just not ready. Tell what’ s missing. In some cases they’ll leave. That’s ok. Hope you’re helping them giving that info;
  • You have to be street smart. You have to be able to “read a room”;
  • I became the boss of my boss early on. It is all about the vision. It’s hard. Try to think 3 years in advance. Have a dream. Let people know what that big dream is. Have the tough conversations on whether they can or cannot scale. It is better to the individual. You shouldn’t surprise anyone. Be gracious, but separate business from the individual.
  • Tell upfront to the person. You have to perform at top level. I don’t know what your path is. But trust me. If you rock, I will create a path.
  • Phil mentioned about the cocaine of customer acquisition. I think about the crack of happy customers;
  • Customer success is knowing the science of your customers. Back them we used spreadsheets. Now you can automate a lot of it;
  • Customer success manager is responsible for utilization of the solution, making the solution sticky, and help the customer realize the value, and uncover needs and goals of the organization. The account management team, runs renewals and upsells based on the uncovered needs;
  • People is your biggest asset. Treat them with respect;

Marketing: Running the Box Playbook – Even Better The Second Time
Anthony KennadaMenaka ShroffAaron Levie

Key insight: It gets easier the second time. The product might change, you might have different customers, but your first time mistakes will happen way less often. The second time, you have a draft playbook, at least.

  • Both panelists came from Box, and the topic of the panel is doing marketing for SaaS for the second time. Key lessons, mistakes, etc.
  • Takeaway #1: Go big with the brand and message. See picture bellow, from 2009. (If you do a billboard, make sure people will have time to read it.)
  • Takeaway #3: As marketers, we need to think about entry points — touches, leads, etc
  • If you have a tool one individual can use alone, and you have a large number of those users, freemium works well. If it’s team/collaboration solution, usually is not that great;
  • For new categories, educate the market first, then, bring the product conversations later on. Gainsight focused on teaching customers how to buy, after teaching customer success concepts. ROI calculators, Buyer guides, Sample RFP’s, Long form explainer ebooks;
  • Takeaway #4: Use events to spread the word. (Benioff invented that)
  • It is great for thought leadership. the event is a manisfestation of what you’re doing online.
  • It isn’t just for customers. It’s about the industry and the category.
  • Takeaway #5: Build customers and a Community
  • One of Box core values is to blow the customers mind;
  • Work close with the early believers. They’ll bring your whale customers later. Respond to their needs and leverage them for promotion;
  • You’re building software for people to use. Make them realize that there’s people on the other side too.
  • Bonus Takeaway: Promote your rockstar CEO!
  • Dress him well;
  • Make him become a thought leader in the category;
  • He has to carry the brand and be responsible for it;

Building Amazing Teams
Keith Rabois

Key insight: Take bets when you hire. Get information to make informed bets. Buy a lot of coffee.

  • Keith started at Paypal, and worked and invested in several startups. Slide, Linkedin, Square, Khosla Ventures, Scribd;
  • 28 investments;
  • Just started Opendoor. 70 employees today. Only 2 have domain expertise;
  • If you have no discretionary time for people, you’re overwhelmed as CEO;
  • Beware of the risk of playing 2 roles. A lot of CEO’s end up doing CEO & VP product. In this case, you might need a COO soon;
  • If you have a secondary title, you need someone to help. It has to be a permanent position;
  • For COO, bring a different skill set. It’s important to assess your gaps and hire someone to fill those;
  • In Paypal we used to have aggressive discussions;
  • In my 1st week at Paypal, Peter explained to me. You can’t go after proven people when you start. You have to go after people that are less proven, and become great at evaluating, focus on learning how to evaluate people. Make informed bets, and give these people the opportunity to succeed.
  • 2 kinds of things you want in a VP. Ability to manage people really well, technical/strategy understanding. Take a bet if they only have A+ experience in one of those;
  • Choose investors that can help you recruit, retain, train;
  • Go meet the 5 best people at something. Have coffee. What will I learn from the best CFO in the world? By getting coffee with one, you have a benchmark to interview less experience candidates. You know what to look for. Use your network, investors, angels;
  • For any new position, interview as many people as possible;
  • You can get good early in your career at reference checking for each position. If you get good at that, it will avoid a lot of mistakes;
  • Preserve what’s unique about your culture. When you’re adding 15 people a quarter, your culture is changing. Make sure you retain culture. Keep people together and on the same page;
  • When you grow very fast, it’s a rocket ship ticket. It’s easy to sell, interesting, and people can find an infinite amount of unknown paths.

How to Break Out and Really Scale
Dan SirokerAjay Agarwal

Key insight: The last thing you wanna do, is what other companies have done.

  • Former director of analytics for Google. Man, it was hard to do A/B testing at that time.
  • Ease of use was the catalyst for growth;
  • Focusing on the product, helped us get growth through evangelism;
  • Marketers tend to talk to other marketers;
  • We were not great at marketing initially. My co-founder’s goal was 1 blog post per quarter. A year later, nada.
  • Our tagline when we started the company was “A/B Testing You’ll Actually Use.”
  • Don’t focus at growth at any costs. Growth has it’s costs. It has expenditure costs, we culture costs. The rocketship message is important. It has to go fast, but also to go far;
  • To be pragmatic you need to be consistent. If someone is not a great culture fit, ask why.
  • Great culture: On a weekly all hands, people report a bug incident. One guy stands up and says: I was the one to introduce the bug, here’s why it happened, here’s what we found about it, here’s why it’ll never happen again. This is a great culture. It’s transparent and accountable. Search for missionaries, not mercenaries;
  • Behaviors are important assistants to culture. Defining them is important too;
  • It’s important to update your company, change values;
  • Our real sales team are our customers;
  • Hire people who are not proven. Bet on these guys;
  • A/B testing on pricing. Eat your own dogfood. We went from SMB simple pricing to a very flexible model (no limits, pay per usage, give U$500 for you to test);
  • Make sure everybody understands what you understand. When you are 250 people, you don’t participate in the majority of the decisions. Give people clarity. Give them the reasoning to make the right decisions and get out of the way;

The Second Five Years
Josh McfarlandRaj De DattaSameer Dholakia

Key insight: Ask the hard question. Are we excited for this next stage? Am I? Are we good technical fit? Can I do it? If not, it’s important to refresh the company.

  • Bloomreach is personalization software for enterprise;
  • Sendgrid is an email marketing platform for developers and marketers;
  • Tellapart is predictive analytics for finding your best customers (acquired by Twitter);
  • Raj Scale culture: Use the word we. Create mechanisms for reinforcing it;
  • Sendgrid’s values, 4H’s: Happy, Hungry, Humble and Honest;
  • TellApart: In the transition to Twitter, we kept one of the strongest cultures in Sillicon Valley. And we never sat down and created a formal document. We hoped to impact your resumee, your bank account, your memories. The TellAparties were memorable. As you transition from 80 people to a 4k people company, you have to keep your culture and amplify it. Bring them to the rest of the company.The commitment I made to my people and to Twitter. A year from now, success means leaving a meeting and not knowing who came from twitter and who came from TellApart. If you have a clash, it is a lack of context, not a major disagreement;
  • Sendgrid has a tradition of flying the whole company for alignment and kickoff meeting in Mexico. Create memories that affect the business;
  • Raj: One of the hardest things about scaling the companies is becoming the #1 experience that impact people’s professional lives;
  • Raj: Be aggressive. But aggressive for the long term. Focus on sustainable growth;
  • Sendgrid did several changes lately. Almost all C level. What are the skills needed to get to the next 5 years? And the executives must understand their roles. Bring people passionate about getting to next level and that have the next stage skills. Have honest conversations and ask: Are you still fired up for this new stage?
  • Bloomreach: Stage #1: Let’s take the world on and do everything. No titles. No exec team. Stage #2: Build an exec team, 3 years in. Spent a lot of time recruiting. Stage #3: Who’s got the energy? The skills, the attitude for the next stage? Refresh.
  • These conversations should be explicit. Have open conversations if people are up for the next challenge. It is freaking hard. Before asking people, ask yourself. Am i excited and interested about it?

PR Playbook: The Real Truth. How to Get It. What It Means
Ed ZitronErica LeeSarah FrierColleen TaylorMatt Weinberger

Key insight: Sell stories and relevance. Don’t be boring.

  • Metrics that really matter: Revenue and valuation. Staff numbers are useful. User numbers are good;
  • Don’t say you grew 5000% this year. You didn’t exist last year;
  • Don’t say “best in class solution”, “disruption”, “innovative”. Tell who your customers are;
  • Our job is to tell stories. Give us tools to help that goal;
  • Market data, Business benchmarks, reasearch data. Expose these kinds of numbers. If you don’t want to expose yourself, get great, interesting stuff;
  • Entrepreneurs undersestimate how smart they are often;
  • Very few people are born to get on stage. If your founder is ugly and boring, found multiple spokespeople. Have different people for different spots.
  • Train people. Train yourself. If you’re a CEO, we hope someday you’ll be on Bloomberg.
  • Very few people are interested in stuff such as data analytics. You have to craft an interesting point of view or story;
  • Practice. Zuck was terrible, now he’s always doing Q&A’s. He’s confortable talking about things he’s passionate;
  • Be professional. The journalist is doing his job. Don’t be an asshole. They are not obliged to talk about your company;
  • Give them real NEWS, not OLDS;
  • Never expect them to cover everything. They are just too busy. They do not work for you. They work for the readers;
  • Sometimes we’ll interview you and not run it. It’s common. Don’t expect that every briefing call will end up as a story. Don’t be frustrated by that;
  • Sync stories and launches. Get everything ready from a product perspective when you give an exclusive;
  • It’s great hearing from the founder, makes stuff more relevant, most of the time. In the early days, do not outsource the story you’re telling;
  • The best way to get in touch is not on the phone. It feels weird for all journalists;

“When Last We Met …”
Jason Lemkin

Key insight: I’ll be at SaaStr 17′ again.

That’s it guys. See you next year. Meanwhile, if you want to connect, follow me on twitter or tweet at @dttg. Congrats Jason M. Lemkin for putting this great crowd and content together.

Podcast: Aaron Ross on SaaS Sales

Aaron Ross on SaaS Sales

Aaron Ross was an early employee at Salesforce and created a sales process that added over a billion dollars in revenue to the company.

Aaron is know most known for writing a book called predictable revenue that became the sales bible in Silicon Valley. His ideas on sales transformed businesses around the world and made him well know in the software industry.

I recently caught up with Aaron to chat about the challenges of SaaS sales, how big companies are transitioning to a subscription business model, and to talk about his new book with Jason Lemkin, From Impossible to Inevitable.

If you like what you hear, check out more episodes on SoundCloud.

If you rather read, here’s a full transcript of the interview.

Hi, this is Leo at Saasmetrics. Today I have the great pleasure and honor to talk to Aaron Ross, Aaron thank you very much for your time.

Hey, nice to meet you. Glad to be here, thanks Leo.

It’s my pleasure. So I don’t think you need to be introduced to our audience. You’re well known in the SaaS space and the software industry, but why don’t you give a little bit of background on yourself and we’ll start from there.

I’d be most known for writing a book called predictable revenue. It’s called the sales bible of the Silicon Valley now. Now if you haven’t heard of it, it talks about my story and some big ideas in sales. So, I started an internet company and it failed. It raised 500 million in venture capital, it didn’t work. One of the reason was because the CEO didn’t know how to build a sales team, and I didn’t know how to build a professional sales organization. I hired a VP of sales, but when it wasn’t working I didn’t know what to do.

So I shut down the company, and thought if I do this and start another company, I need to know how to sell as a CEO and professionally sell and build a team. So I got a job at sales force, the lowest sales job they had, which was the only sales job they had, and there are about 150 people. I like to say I started it early but not early enough, I still have to work, and I ended up creating an out bound prospecting system called “cold calling 2.0” to generate all the sale pipeline we needed in order to hit our new sales goals. So to help doubling their’s growth. By now its been about 10 years adding about a billion dollars in revenue. Sales force.


So that’s the book. When I get emails saying “hey I read the book, it transformed my business and ideas”. There’s three or four big ideas around it. The one around specializing your sales people is probably the simplest and most important. So the book covers a lot about lead generation and about prospecting.

Specializing your sales people is the idea that if you’re not doing it, and it means having prospectors that prospect, which is separate from the closers who close, which is usually separate from sales roles, other roles handling current customers sort of having more types of sales roles while doing fewer things better, but that is the number one thing to do to make everything work better including, sales people, lead generation, and the whole company. But people will say doing that transformed our business.

Well that indeed is a great book! I had a chance to read it a couple of times myself and it really makes sense. As you said Its simple ideas but they work! Organize leads the way you specialize the sales team; it makes a lot of sense the book was written five years ago right? What’s changed since then?

It’s interesting that a lot of the lessons that I’ve learned over the last few years, you know there’s a new book coming very soon called “from impossible to inevitable”. A lot of the lessons I and my coauthor, Jason Lemkin, have learned over the past years. So Jason founded a company called “EchoSign” and sold it to adobe for more than 100 million dollars and grew it from zero to more than 100 million in revenue.

So it’s not so much thing the way people are buy things and selling and generating leads are evolving, say the number one lesson that’s in the new book that I think everyone is going to need or I see everyone does need both individuals and companies isn’t so much how people buy or sell but we call it how to nail a niche. So its understanding why if you have an idea, why aren’t people excited about your idea or product? Or you talk to friends, you get ten customers and try to get 50 more, it stops working whatever you’re doing.

So its this idea of why is there this problem with your first customers, or from getting from zero customers to a few and from getting a few customers to a few dozens, that phase to actually being able to grow faster. So explain why there is a problem, why there is this chasm and what to do about it, because if you can’t nail a niche, everything you do is going to be a struggle.

Yeah totally, so I read the draft of the book with Jason Lemkin and I really loved it, and I really liked the idea of nailing a niche especially in the early stage of your company it makes sense. But I do question myself when we talk about start ups right especially when planning to raise money VC’s usually tend to force you to look to the broader picture to target a big market.


I heard Jason talking about a hundred-million-dollar business a couple times already do you believe there is a number to be targeted in terms of the size of the market you are going after.

First with Jason. His audience is a lot of investor funded companies who want to grow big and grow to one hundred million dollars in revenue or more. Now I have heard and think wow I have a million-dollar business or two hundred-million-dollar business and I don’t want a bigger business, there is this pressure to grow.

So I think for some people in some companies, great, if you do want to grow big, 50 or 100 million dollars or bigger. But there’s lots of companies like where you are in brazil or where I am in LA and people don’t want to grow that big but they want predictable income and stability and a great team but they aren’t on the hyper growth track where it means to grow as fast and as big as you can no matter what.

In terms of market sizes if you’re going to raise money from investors, they want to know you’re not limited by your market. Nailing a niche doesn’t mean your thinking small, it means you can have an idea to address a large market but wherever you start is where you’re being focused. So its not about being small its about being focused.

A common thing is having a product or an idea, might have some customers, and again you’re spreading your marketing and sales across to many amounts of people and customers and you’re just spreading your energy around and not focusing on the few customers that need you the most because you want to find the customers the need us versus when are we nice to have. Everybody could use us, but only the ones who need you are going to put in the time and energy to learn about you, get started, buy it, and actually implement it and train people to make it actually successful. Focus on where are you a need to have.

Totally! I couldn’t agree more. It’s the vitamin versus pain killer thing right? So about Jason, I’ve seen you two working together lately really seems like a productive partnership and I’d like to know in what circumstances did you meet him and where did the idea for the notebook come from.

I met him in 2007 when I was an entrepreneur in residence at a venture capital fund at paualto I don’t remember how I met him but we were introduced. His company EchoSign was still early at that point I thought it was a great idea, I liked him. We didn’t really talk till 6 years later. He had sold EchoSign to adobe and he started to do some blogging. I saw his blogs, I liked him.

At some point I reached out and asked him if he was interested on being a coauthor on a book together. He said yes. He was more of a writer and I am more of an author. Together we put our stuff together as a package. Doing a book is frustrating and fun at the same time. How do you take the smallest amount of content into something specific? Its been a great partnership. He’s doing great and I am a bit jealous. His conference has taken off.

Cool, awesome, so you mentioned EchoSign and adobe here. And there is a very interesting point around that, tum Tonga is from red point ventures, wrote a blog post a few months ago saying that although were talking about SaaS for a decade now, were still at the beginning. Over 93% of their revenue are still controlled by the traditional legacy software vendors like oracle Acp and Microsoft etc. We see adobe being a successful case of transition from a traditional business model so my question is how do you see that movement from the traditional companies and how that an effect opportunities’ for SaaS startups out there.

There’s a book called the innovators dilemma that says, once you’re a successful business its hard to switch directions to do a competitive business or a business that can cannibalize. That’s where a lot of companies are making the shift. It’s a huge financial change for companies especially a public company that says this year we’ll do a billion dollars in software deals.

Switch and say were going 100 percent to subscription, instead of a billion dollars this year, we’re going to 200 million. We’re going to lose 80 percent of our revenue into a subscription model. It doesn’t work, there’s other reasons like technology, culture, the way people sell. Their actually different businesses in a lot of ways.

Its taken years I think for companies to figure out how to make that kind of transition. The bigger they are the harder it is. Lots of companies sell both on premise software and subscription. There’s not really one model that fits everything. Not every business should be a SaaS business. Whatever the problem is your solving, you don’t want to be a subscription just because its subscription but what’s the best way to solve it for customers and for yourself. Sometimes it might be on premise but commonly its on subscription.

The more choices there are, it can be harder on entrepreneurs and I know from the early days said no software, for example, they maybe had the chance to complete if they had sold all their licensing to Meryl Lynch for their on premise they said no to it, stick to what their best at and the market understood and agreed with it.

Yep, what I found really interesting is not just a new way to build software but to sell it. Adobe creative clown like Photoshop, you still need to install it on your desktop computer but its sold as a subscription model.

Like Microsoft office 365. There’s some blending of that and I think It comes back to the customers want and what they need and what is going to make them successful and what’s good for you.

Cool! Great! Going back to your book, I really liked it, one part resonated with me. It says there is not recipe for success you guys mentioned a lot of SaaS companies that did that have in common and worked out. That helped them achieve hyper growth. Is there one special thing that companies out there should be paying attention to or looking for?

Nailing a niche. Coming up with something that somebody or a company needs. How to deliver it. You know how to find them. It sounds easy, sometimes it takes companies a couple of years to get to your first million in revenue. Okay we’ve got core customers down and our product and messaging down and were ready to grow. Even Jason in the new book, there’s a section that says “you need to give yourself two years before you know if its going to work”.

Yep, Don’t give up on a bad day!

So that’s one, the second thing is if you want to grow, you have to want to grow. It’s not just going to happen by default. So that means pushing yourself to do things that are out of your comfort zone. If you’ve been doing a services business for ten years and you’re not growing, maybe you need to start a new kind of program. Maybe you need to write a book for yourself, or create a software service.

Do something different. A lot of companies are held back because they’re comfortable. You’re not going to get growth by doing a lot of the same stuff. So if you really want to double or triple or grow by ten times your going to do things different. Get out of your comfort zone, get uncomfortable, and think bigger.

Yeah! I know another thing you said “you can’t build a big business out of small deals” people should double their deal prices. Companies tend to under price their products and when they grow they struggle to raise prices. Id like to know what your thoughts are on SaaS pricing on terms of free models, free trials, and expansions and etc.

These seven sections of the new book, each one is a painful truth. The fourth is its hard to build a big business out of small deals. So if you’re starting a company, you start with whatever you can get. You want to get a few customers just to see what the business is going to be like and get started, but as you grow and you put up an app or a book or some post and it goes viral and suddenly you’re overwhelmed with leads.

Once you’ve got your core customer product down, figure out not only how to generate more leads for that but increase the deal size. How do you go upmarket as soon as you can tell sell bigger deals? If you can sell a fifty dollar a month app to one person, but you can change that to create a team version plus add more features so maybe you can sell a package of five people for five hundred dollars a month, and if you’re selling to teams, companies, generally once you get away from the really small customers, those smaller customers tend to have a lot higher attrition and more problems.

As you go upmarket to teams and bigger companies, who are willing to pay upfront, or to do longer contracts. They’re usually willing to put more resources, there’s more commitment. The customers end up being generally happier they stay with you long and you make more money.

Yeah. We’ve seen companies like box who started serving mass MB’s and overtime moved to serve certain enterprises and it makes sense right? But what about freemium models. Specifically, how to I get freemium models.

You know if it’s a business and you’ve got investors and you need to have a lot of revenue, generally freemium I think, needs a lot of people to make it work. In the book, Jason says you need tens of millions of people to make freemium to work as a financial model, or a hundred million users.

So I think freemium, if you’re a small company, and you want some extra lead generation and maybe you’ve got some other higher end things to sell you know it could be consulting or software it could be a good thing to try, but its harder than you think and people realize that to turn freemium into something that really creates a fast growing business.

Yeah. You are right.

So a lot of times if you have, especially in SaaS, a two-week free trial, you get to try the product then it stops, and then you have to pay. I think that’s more effective in business to business generally.

Yeah, and you mention professional services, I believe it is a very controversial within the software industry. Its not scalable, we have tight margins and I believe that VC’s make entrepreneurs skeptical about professional services. I personally believe there is a healthy mix between services and product, especially in services around your product or your platform. In terms of sales, what do you believe the differences are between selling professional services and selling your software product.

Generally, if you have a software business, professional services are incredibly valuable. I think in Silicon Valley, some people have picked up this idea that you want to avoid services, like professional services are bad. It means the product isn’t fully ready. The company isn’t scalable; the VC’s aren’t going to like it. There is definitely people that think they don’t want any professional services. Its totally wrong. A software company should add them just to make money, but they can be the best way to insure that your customers are successful.

So your internal people are becoming expert people at whatever you do. Hub spot has services internally to make sure customers are deployed successfully. Whether its free, included or paid, make sure they are deployed and know how to market. They can earn extra money that way. In terms of the people who are doing that are becoming better and better and better at being experts. So I think its incredibly important and vital to have professional services of some kind, but you have to have them.

Indeed. So as you know here at Saasmetrics we help companies around the world who grow their new career avenue by giving them insights and accurate business metrics. When it comes to SaaS sales, what are the metrics you like to keep track of and would suggest people to pay attention to?

Well beyond things like revenue, the number one best leading indicator of your growth is okay, say you’ve got a business, you’re selling something and you’re selling something regularly. You pass maybe ten customers but your into a few dozen or more, you keep track of the amount of the qualified pipeline created per month the better. We call it pipeline creation rate. Sometimes we call it lead velocity rate, but I think its confusing. If we’re creating half a million dollars in qualified pipeline this month, 750 thousand during next month, and then a million, that’s the best leading indicator of revenue.


If you can create qualified pipeline, the revenue will come. Assuming other things are equal. So that’s one I think is one of the best metrics. Another one is incredibly important is called attrition or churn. At what rate are customers leaving or churning. The ones that stay, do they buy more. There’s logo churn, which is the number of companies leaving and there is net revenue churn which is on the revenue dollar amount how much are you losing or gaining per year.

Of course.

Stuff you probably write about in your blog.

Yeah we do.

Those are two number, the two most important ones that we actually have sections in the book about it. There’s another section in the book about let’s say more classic sales numbers. Things like close/win rates. Numbers of opportunities per salesperson. The point is its not about these are the number you need to track. The point of the section is look at them in a different way.

Higher win rates aren’t necessarily a good thing. Low win rates are a bad thing. If we use X and Y what changes so there are situations where a company has a win rate that is 20 percent of their pipeline and a company has an 80 percent, which one is better. What if the 80 percent win rate is all referrals because they don’t like to spend money on marketing.

So it’s a much smaller growth rate. If it’s the 20 percent growth rate, they’re much more aggressive to selling and marketing. So again they are different. Its having an insight on judgement and not numbers.

Incredible, so Aaron the book from impossible to inevitable went out on February the 8th, correct?

Yep, and at some point we’ll have a brazilin version. Leo here offered to translate the first chapter!

I did!

So you can ask him for it.


But yeah we will have a version in Portuguese at some point for Brazil, just can’t promise when. The next one coming out in China funny enough.

Wow! Okay. So if people want to buy it, we can find it on Amazon right?

Yeah its, you can find links from and it may show up on the brazilin stores on amazon but I’m not sure how it works. I know predictable revenue is on amazon brazil. I know a lot of fans in brazil. I appreciate it everyone and thank you Leo!

No thank you! Thank you very much for being here and your time. It was a really great conversation. Once again congratulations on your new book and that’s it! Until next time!

Common Ways of Miscalculating and Misinterpreting SaaS unit Economics

When it comes to measuring subscription businesses, unit economics are crucial.

Miscalculating or misinterpreting these numbers can be really harmful for your business.

This set of metics will tell you if you’re building a sustainable business, and that is only possible with profits. One can say that making no profits is not necessarily bad, pointing Amazon as an example.

Amazon haven’t been profitable for years and still a very successful business. There are good reasons why one would raise capital and make investments that lead you to be unprofitable – like hiring new sales people and accelerating sales on a SaaS business – but they key point here is availability of capital fueling faster growth.

Despite investments, let’s see how to avoid miscalculating or misinterpreting your unit economics.

Misinterpreting profitability

Let’s take a look at a very simple math: Let’s say Amazon buys a book for $10 and spend more $5 on fulfilment, making the total cost of the book $15 (COGS). Then Amazon sells this book for $20, making $5 Gross Profit; after taxes, makes $3 Net Profit.

Now let’s say Amazon decides to invest $5 on growth, to explore new product lines or even new business such as AWS. At the end of the day the company’s result will be $2 negative, right?

The difference between this and a bad unit economics are: Amazon is not loosing money on every single transaction, and therefore, they could become profitable at any moment if they slowed down growth.

I’m hypothetically analyzing Amazon as an example, but think of this on a large scale. If you make money on every single transaction, your company will certainly be profitable, unless you choose not to. That’s totally different than loosing money on each transaction, making it impossible to be profitable.

Managing your unit economics is making sure you’re not selling dollar bills for ninety cents.

“Managing your unit economics is making sure you’re not selling dollar bills for ninety cents”. Tweet this quote

Certain that you know how to interpret unit economics, let’s see how not to miscalculate them.

Customer Lifetime Value

The hard thing about calculating Customer Lifetime Value is the lifetime part. We usually use churn rate to get lifetime: e.g. If your monthly churn rate is 3% then Customer Lifetime would be 1/0.03 which is 33 months.

The problem is that early stage businesses don’t have a stable churn rate (or no churn at all), and therefore they have to make assumptions around how long a typical customer will be around before churning. And that’s dangerous, specially because entrepreneurs tend to be too optimistic when making those assumptions.

The second big mistake when calculating LTV is to consider revenue. To be accurate, you should consider the profits gained by the customer, deduce COGS and use Gross Profit to calculate it, not Gross Revenue.

e.g. A customer pays you $100 (Revenue), it costs you $70 do serve them (COGS), and your acquisition costs are $50. If you consider Revenue you’d be profitable, but if you consider Gross Profit ($30) you’d be loosing $20.

Customer Acquisition Costs

CAC can be measured incorrectly if it doesn’t capture the true cost of acquisition.

The default formula to calculate CAC is Sales & Marketing Expenses / # of New Customers.

The mistake here is to measure CAC by looking at the attributable marketing costs only, like paid advertising.

You should actually take your full marketing and sales spend including PR, content production, sales reps, advertising, marketing & sales software licenses (e.g. HubSpot and Salesforce) and then divided by your customers acquired to get your fully loaded CAC.

LTV:CAC Ratio and Payback Period

A smart and simple thing to do is to analyze these metrics in comparison with each other. One of the things you should do is to compare your LTV to your CAC and measure the ratio.

Even more important than that is to keep track of the CAC payback period. In SaaS it likely makes sense to sell to customers who don’t churn yield recurring revenues for 3+ years and positive LTV/CAC ratios.

But none of this matters if you run out of money. Sustaining short-term losses is all predicated on ability to finance the losses through venture capital or other means.

Benchmark for B2B SaaS sales cycles

When it comes to B2B SaaS sales cycles, it’s never easy to know if you’re doing good. How many days does it takes to close a deal? What factors and characteristics affect this number?

The first thing to understand is that SaaS sales cycle can vary dramatically, depending on a few factors.

What factors affects B2B SaaS sales cycles?

Target customer

Sales cycle will vary dramatically depending on what size of companies you’re targeting. And the reason is simple: enterprises have complex structures, and you’ll will have to go through a long compliance process that can take weeks or months. It also tend to take longer because you have to sell the solution to several people, not just your end user/department. Every time a new stakeholder is involved in the buying process, you have to re-sell the product.

Let’s say you’re selling a marketing automation tool to a Fortune 500 company. It’s not enough to have the marketing director bought in, you’ll probably have to go through IT to prove you’re infrastructure is reliable and their data is safe; then procurement where they will compare your proposal with at least two others; then finance to have you registered as a vendor, align payment conditions and methods. It ain’t easy.

“Every time a new stakeholder is involved in the buying process, you have to re-sell the product”. Tweet this quote


That might sounds obvious, but the more expensive your product is, the longer it will take you to sell it. Let’s say your selling a simple self-service tool that costs $5 a month; There’s a chance your target user will enter her credit card info and buy your product without thinking too much. It just not worthy the time to overanalyse something that costs so little, you simply try it.

Now if you’re selling a solution that will cost the company more than a $100,000 per year, it will certainly take longer. People don’t want to make such commitment/investment unless they’re sure you’re exactly what they need. Commonly it’s even necessary the investment is planned a year ahead, usually around Q3 when companies are planning budget forecast for the next year.

Payment Terms

Same as price, if you ask customers for longer payment terms, such as annual contracts, it will certainly take longer for you to close the deal. Look at HubSpot for instance, they only sell their product if you pay for a full year upfront; There are a lot of benefits of such decision, but it’s definitely a adoption barrier and it certainly extends their sales cycle.

Broader Product

If you’re selling a complete solution that will impact various departments and functions within a company, you’ll take longer to close a deal. Imagine you’re selling an ERP that will impact they way the whole organisation works, versus selling an email marketing tool that will be using a single department. It’s pretty different, right?

If you’re a point solution, you’ll tend to have less people involved in the process and therefore will close the deal faster. Less people involved equals less analysis, less barriers, less time.

New Market

If you’re not selling to an existing market with known and defined functionality and  competitors, you’ll also tend longer to sell. That’s because before you’ll have to prove yourself useful. If a company is adopting an existing/known solution such as an payment gateway, they’ll likely to compare your features and price with competitors and make a decision.

If you’re selling something completely new, you’ll have to educate the market first, make the customer aware of the problem, present them the solution to that problem, and then show them why your solutions is the best.

“If you’re selling something completely new, you’ll have to educate the market first”. Tweet this quote


Ok, all these factors make sense but we want numbers, right? Here’s are some overgeneralized data to give you a rough sense, captures from a response Jason Lemkin gave on a Quora post about this topic.

Keep in mind that these numbers can vary dramatically, depending on the factors above.

These are sales cycles from High Probability Opportunities. i.e., prospective customer has said there is a high likelihood she will buy, says it is budgeted (if deal size is big enough to matter), and sales rep believes this is true.

It may take one call to get you a High Probability Opportunity. It make take you 2 years. So I’m not counting that time, though you may be.

Once you are there:

  • Deals ~$2,000 in ACV should close on average within 14 days.
  • Deals ~$5,000 in ACV should close on average within 30 days.
  • Deals ~$25,000 in ACV should close on average within 90 days.
  • Deals ~$100,000 in ACV should close on average within 90-180 daysdepending on # of stakeholders.
  • Deals $100,000+ in ACV will take on average 3-6 months to close. Of course, some faster, some shorter.

3 Incredibly Important Prospecting Metrics to Keep Track of in B2B Sales

For salesman, the most important metric they keep track of is how much business have they closed per month, quarter, year. This helps set up payout, promotion and advancement.But how do you get there?

What’s important to keep track of that keeps a salesman headed in the right direction and not chasing bad prospects?

There are important indicators that help set up those closes, and they are important because they keep the salesman on track and help identify when adjustments need to be made in order to keep the sales journey headed towards a close.

Here’s what gets you there:

Email Conversions

Keeping track of open and response rates – this is key – you need to know what is working. Are you drawing prospects in with a quality subject line? If you are not getting good open rates, then you know you need to get better subject lines to draw the prospect in – you need to make them want to open your email.

Higher open rates mean higher probabilities of getting responses. You need to stay on top of your open rates and be quick to adjust to make them better. Use your best copywriting skills to make those subject lines scream “open me!�?

Then, are you getting responses? Is your copy good enough? Are you getting accurate results from you’re A/B testing? If your response rates are low, you can be sure you are not providing engaging copy – your value is not being properly conveyed. If you’re just writing about features without explaining the benefits of your service and why they will add value to the prospect, you will not get responses and you lessen the chance of response when you proceed with your email cadence. You can have done everything to optimize your cadence, but without good copy, you look foolish.

Positive Conversations

Sure, you keep track of dials, contacts etc, but are you keeping track of positive conversations? Are they at the top of your list? These are the higher quality, higher probability prospects that go through your sales funnel quicker. You may make plenty of contacts each day and put certain prospects in the follow up file, but the good, positive conversations should be tracked and determined why they are positive. What makes them positive and can you replicate those types of calls with other prospects?

When you keep track of these types of calls you are focusing on your higher probability prospects that you will set appointments with, do demos for, and will ultimately buy from you and become a valued customer. Focus on these conversations and your ratio of positive calls to closed business.

Closing Ratio

We can have had plenty of email conversions and positive conversations all day long, but unless you actually close the prospect and get them to purchase your SaaS service, subscription etc, none of those numbers matter. You need to close. What is your closing ratio from time of initial contact -time from email conversion and time from initial call.

Bonus metric

How many times per week/month are you working to improve your sales skills? We have been able to automate just about everything, have you automated learning? Are you reading up on your industry? Connecting with sales pros who can give you different ideas/ ways to close difficult prospects and handle unique selling situations?

How many sales related books/articles do you read per month?

How many self-improvement/motivational books/articles do you read per month?

James Altucher says that we can get a lifetime of information when we read someone’s biography because the knowledge is condensed into a book and that you can outsource 90 percent of mentorship to books and other materials. 200-500 books equals one good mentor. Read everyday – be committed to making yourself better. That’s one metric that if you continue to raise the bar with knowledge and self work, will help put you over the top when you keep track of the previous 3 metrics. Be better every day, and let the numbers guide you.

The Right SaaS Metrics for Each Stage of Your Company

The right SaaS metrics for each stage of your company

You probably know tons of different SaaS and subscription metrics, and you probably heard you should be measuring a few of them no matter what. Actually even we have told you that on the “5 metrics that every subscription business should be measuring” article.

Guess what? That isn’t necessarily true.

Don’t get me wrong, those five metrics are still key and should definitely be measured for most part of the SaaS and subscription business, but the whole point here is the stage of your business. Imagine yourself and you co-fouder running a recently created startup in a garage and measuring things like EBITDA, deferred revenue or sales quota per rep. That doesn’t make sense right?

Stuck for time? Here’s a recording of Leo reading this post:

In a SaaS or subscription business, there are a few key metrics that need your undivided attention — and the priority of these metrics shift as you grow. It means that instead of measuring dozens or hundreds of different metrics, you should start with the core only and evolve from there – as your business grows and demands more control and higher complexity.

“Your company challenges and priorities evolves over time, and your metrics should reflect that”. Tweet this quote

The following guideline will help you:

  • To focus: by focusing only on the key metrics, you’ll also be focusing on the core problems you need to solve to get your business to the next level.
  • To be actionable: data doesn’t do you any good unless you act on it. Each of these metrics clearly tells you how you’re doing. Right away, you’ll know where you need to spend your time.
  • To evolve: each stage complements the previous one with more comprehensive and complex metrics. You probably want to add (not remove) metrics along the way.

The chart below demonstrates a comprehensive set of metrics according to a SaaS/subscription company stage. Please keep in mind that this is a suggestions and works for most part of business, but may not be necessarily true for you. As usual, it all depends on your context/type of product/customers.

Click on the image to enlarge it.

SaaS metrics per company stage

There are a few things we can learn from this chart:

Qualitative vs. Quantitative

The more early-stage your company is, the more qualitative your metrics are. That means when you’re early stage you want to talk to the each and every customer you can, and get rich and qualitative feedback on your product or service. That’s key to understand your buyer’s persona challenges, needs and barriers to adopt your product.

As your companies grows, and it’s gets barely impossible to talk to every customer, your metrics become more quantitative and less qualitative – but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t talk to specific customers segments once in a while ok? It’s extremely important to keep getting qualitative feedback from customer who are churning, for instance.

“The more early-stage your company is, the more qualitative your metrics are”. Tweet this quote


As your company grows, the complexity of your metrics grows too. And that’s ok. Take churn for instance: when you’re early stage you may simply measure your gross churn, which is simply the number of customers who cancelled their subscription to your product/service.

As you grow, you may want also to measure gross revenue churn. And later on, gross churn isn’t enough any more, and you move to more complex metrics such as net churn – that takes into consideration expansions, refunds – and may lead you to a negative churn.

The one thing you should be worried about is not to abandon simple/less complex metrics as your companies grow. Although measuring net churn becomes more effective, it’s extremely important to keep measuring gross churn, no matter the size of your company.

“As your company grows, the complexity of your metrics grows too. And that’s ok”. Tweet this quote

Company Stages

Super Early Stage

At this stage, you’re just starting to build your product. What you want to do here is validate your hypothesis, and your metrics should reflect that. The number one goal is to capture the key values that your product/service offers that customer are willing to pay for. That’s way at this point, almost all your metrics are qualitative. You want to talk to real customers. We’re not talking about automated emails, ads or retargets, but actual calls to get rich feedback.

Suggested metrics at this stage:
Qualitative Feedback; Customer Engagement Score; Website Visits, Leads & Conversion.

Early Stage

At this stage you already have some paying customers, you know your key values, but you don’t have yet a repeatable and scalable sales machine. What we want to do here is to understand your business characteristics, things like: how much does it costs for you to acquire a new customers? How long does a customer usually stays with you as a subscriber? Are customers cancelling their subscriptions after a certain period?

Suggested metrics at this stage:
Bookings; Monthly & Annual Recurring Revenue; Customer Count; Gross Churn; Average Revenue per Account; Customer Acquisition Cost; Customer Lifetime Value; LTV:CAC Ratio; Up-front Invoicing; Cash.

Growth Stage

At this stage your business is growing rapidly. You’ve found the exact way to market and sell your product/service, you have full-time sales reps, and your process is well designed and documented for the whole company. New employees come on board and have a culture to match, a sales script to follow, a way to do business.

Measuring new customers are not enough any more, you’re looking to expand your ways to bring more revenue with up-sells and cross-sellsand you want to retain your customer as long as you can. Your customer success team is in place and measure more detailed information about your customers behavior and engagement with your product or service.

Suggested metrics at this stage:
Net Churn; Up-sell, Cross-sell & Down-sell; Gross Margin; Cost of Goods Sold; Cohort Analysis; Expenses; Forecasted Sales & Quotas; EBITDA; YoY, MoM Customers & Revenue Growth.

Public Companies

At this point, a comprehensive set of metrics is a necessity – and it’s ok if they get complex. Possibly, the standard way to calculate metrics are not enough anymore, you need custom metrics and multiple combinations of metrics. You’re measuring MoM and YoY growth of almost every possible number and cohort analysis is something common.

You measure detailed metrics for customer activation per different acquisition channels, and fight for churn/retention like never before. Your revenue can be seen in many different forms, and you know EBITDA is also not enough anymore.

Suggested metrics at this stage:
Deferred Revenue; Marketing Penetration; Segmentation & Exploratory Analysis; and many more.